The Rapture: Part Six

In my last post we looked at the blessedness of the raptured New Testament saints being part of the marriage supper of the Lamb.  Now we will see what God showed to John regarding the raptured saints’ privilege of being with Jesus Christ when He comes to judge the Antichrist, the false prophet, and all those who have been deceived into worshiping, following, and taking the mark of the son of perdition.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse.  And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.  12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns.  He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.  13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God.  14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.  15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.  And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron.  He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.  17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”  19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.  20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.  These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.  21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.  And all the birds were filled with their flesh.  Revelation 19:11-21

We can see that the armies that follow Christ are the raptured New Testament saints by the description of what they wear, which is identical to those who attend the marriage supper of the Lamb.

8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.  Revelation 19:8

Some within the visible church believe and teach that these are those believers who are martyred during the tribulation period for their faith, but we must make the same distinction between the raptured saints and the tribulation saints that the Word of God makes.  These teachers of error couch their lie in the premise that God’s people suffer persecution, which is true, but what makes the tribulation saints unique is they forfeit their lives because they refuse to worship the Antichrist and take his mark.  No other martyred saints are thus persecuted, and the tribulation saints are given a special reward for their faithfulness to Jesus Christ and His Word.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and the testimony which they held.  10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”  11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.  Revelation 6:9-11

The tribulation saints are like all persecuted and murdered saints, they hold fast to their testimony of faith in Jesus Christ and their belief in the literal Word of God.  The tribulation saints are believers who come to faith in Jesus Christ under the powerful preaching of the 144,000 Jewish saints who are specially chosen and anointed for this task.

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:  5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed: of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed: of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed: 6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed: of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed: of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed: 7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed: of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed: of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed: 8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed: of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed: of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.  9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”  11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:  “Amen!  Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever.  Amen.”  13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”  14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”  So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Revelation 7:4-14

This scene in heaven portends the great harvest that will come when the tribulation saints are murdered for the faith in Christ.  They give glory to Jesus Christ for the salvation that is theirs through faith in God’s Son.  Anyone who stays faithful to God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, through God’s divine election, will be killed by the Antichrist for refusing to take the mark of the beast and worship him.

6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.  7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.  And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.  8  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.  10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword.  Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.  Revelation 13:6-10

9 The third angel followed them saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.  He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.  11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”  12 Here is the patience of the saints, here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.  13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write:  ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”  “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors and their works follow them.”  Revelation 14:9-13

Only people who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, through faith in His name, will be spared this eternal judgment of God upon those who worship the image of the beast and take the number of his name proving they are apostate and damned.  The beast will behead all those who refuse to comply with his demands to take his mark and worship him.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.  Then I saw the souls of those who have been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.  And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.  5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.  This is the first resurrection.  6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.  Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.  Revelation 20:4-6

Yes, believers in Christ will be persecuted to death during the tribulation for following Jesus Christ and believing what God has said in His Word the Bible.  They will be beheaded for their faithfulness to Christ, but they are given the special privilege of eternal life and reigning with Christ during His millennial reign.  Notice they are received and assigned this glorious privilege after Christ has returned with His armies, the raptured saints, and cast the Antichrist and the false prophet alive into the lake of fire, and killed the followers of the beast.  The armies of Christ are the raptured saints who are delivered from the wrath of God that will come upon the whole world because they reject the gift of His Son and love their sin instead.  God bless us.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  1 Thessalonians 4:17

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.  1 Thessalonians 5:9-10

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26 Responses to The Rapture: Part Six

  1. Sherry says:

    I just noticed something but then, again, it may mean nothing: John did not know who those were dressed in white robes so I’m taking it to mean that there is a pre-trib rapture, which he is a part, and so he knows those who were raptured with him, but not those going through the Great Tribulation and being martyred for their faith in Christ Jesus.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Eliza says:

      Maybe so. It is also interesting to note that the persecuted are given white robes while those who attend the marriage supper of the Lamb wear linen, clean and bright, they also are with Jesus Christ when He comes to judge this world.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. Bob Wheeler says:

    You still haven’t proved that the “tribulation saints” are different from the “raptured saints.” You’re reading Scofield’s notes back into the text. Should I condemn you as a false teacher?

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    • gracealone1 says:

      Actually, Bob, she did and showed it through the Scriptures. Are you one of those who believes that the Church must endure the GT so as to cleanse her of her many sins?

      Darrel

      Liked by 1 person

      • Bob Wheeler says:

        No, she did not. She produced Scriptures that showed that there are saints who are persecuted during the Tribulation. What she did not do is show that these “Tribulation Saints” are somehow different from “Raptured Saints,” or, for that matter, that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation. And yes, the message of the Book of Revelation is “blessed are those who endure to the end.”

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        • Eliza says:

          Bob, what you shared is your opinion. Why doesn’t God use the church as His evangelists? Why does He use the 144,000 redeemed Jews? Why are there the two witnesses in Jerusalem, most likely Enoch and Elijah, who testify against the Antichrist and his adoring world, and the testimony of the “visible church” is absent? If present circumstances are any indication, and we study and understand what God has revealed in chapters 17, 18 and 19 of Revelation, it is that the saints are with God in heaven and the “visible church” is merely a puppet of the Antichrist; it is the great end time harlot. The saints are mentioned in Revelation as being persecuted. These saints are those who have been saved through the preaching of the 144,000 evangelists from the tribes of Israel who follow the Lamb where ever He goes. We learn this from chapter 14 of the book of Revelation, and isn’t interesting that there are two harvests pictured in that chapter, one of the redeemed, which includes the evangelists, who are put to death for their faith, and the other of the unredeemed who are harvested for judgment. Also, please note, these judgments come after two angels have sounded, one concerning the fall of “Babylon” and the other concerning the judgment due those who worship the beast and take the mark of his name. God bless us.

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    • Eliza says:

      Huh? I read the Bible, period. I don’t resort to any sort of commentary at all ever. What I read is what I read. What is written in the post is only what I read in the Scriptures. I’m not like you Bob, I can just be content with what God says in His Word, I don’t have to know, nor care to know what so and so has to say. What God says is sufficient for me.

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      • Bob Wheeler says:

        I’m content with just what the Bible says. But you haven’t shown me where in the Bible it says that the rapture will take place before the Tribulation. You’re the one who is making things up. Doesn’t that make you a false teacher?

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        • Eliza says:

          Where in the Bible does it say specifically that God is Triune? You are just using semantics to try and disprove godly doctrine that is taught in the Scripture. Let me turn this around, where in the Scripture does it say specifically that it will not happen before the tribulation? Are you a false teacher because you teach that believers will be judged along with the world during the time of God’s wrath when God has clearly said in 1 Thessalonians that we are not appointed for wrath which statement comes right after the passages that reveal more doctrine about the rapture and give the mindset of those who are doomed for destruction during the tribulation?

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  3. gracealone1 says:

    I’m so glad you stuck around, Bob Wheeler, now we can take a closer look at what makes you tick and see, by using your own words, just how far out in left field you are. There will be no need to level accusations for we will hear directly from you, on your own blog.

    The post dated June 15,2015 entitled “Rapture-When” has so many flaws in it that you have concocted it would not be worth while to dispute (doubtless your mind is set in stone on this issue). Your concluding statements reveal your true thoughts. Thus begins your “reasoning”. “The first is to purify the Church” After which you quote 1 Peter 1:6 &7 and continuing on you say: “When Christ comes back to receive His Bride, it will not be the carnal, worldly church we see today, but the church whose faith and love have been tested and purified by the flames of persecution.” My own personal assessment of this statement is “poppy-cock fantasy ‘theology'”. My thoughts are not the determining factor as to whether or not your preceding statement is Biblically sound and accurate. But the Scriptures are. Please show us all the verse(s) that teach that a SECOND cleansing of the Bride of Christ is necessary prior to her meeting her Lord face to Face. Of all the Scriptures that tell us of the total, complete and eternal efficacy of the one and only sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross, please indicate which of these shows that a second “purification” (your word) of the Bride is required for her to be accepted by Him. While you are at it, please inform us why it is that only those living members of the Bride of Christ at the time of the Great Tribulation are the only ones that must suffer the “persecution” that you reference in order to be acceptable to their Lord and why not those who have died prior to the GT? It would be nice if you could limit your response to “Scripture only” but since there are none to support your fairy-tails I guess we’ll have to endure more of your double-speak.

    You claim to be a spokesman for God, maybe even a modern day “prophet” and yet you speak lies in hypocrisy and state that the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was and is insufficient to save to the uttermost His Bride, the Church by requiring more “purification”. If the Blood of Christ has not purified you no amount of “persecution” ever will. Then to top it all off you say that others who expose your HERESIES are the ‘false prophets’ when it is you, sir, that spout the lies from hell. Today is a good day for you to repent, but that is reserved for the elect. May God have mercy on His elect.

    Even so, Come, Lord Jesus.

    Darrel (PS: there is so much more to be said of your errors, but enough–for now.)

    Liked by 1 person

    • Eliza says:

      In a sense Bob is correct, but we must make the distinction that those who repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation are those who were part of the apostate end time whore masquerading as the church and so they will need salvation not purification! After God opens their eyes to the truth about Christ, His gospel, His coming, and the rapture of His church that has already taken place they will repent, put their faith in Christ and then suffer persecution from the Antichrist for their faith. God bless us.

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  4. Bob Wheeler says:

    I Peter 1:6,7 looks pretty plain to me. There is also a warning in I Cor. 3:11-15 to pastors about the methods they use to get “results.” Granted, the “fire” mentioned in verses 13 and 15 doesn’t necessarily refer to the Great Tribulation, but it does suggest that God uses the persecution of the church to cleanse it from the dross. Significantly each of the letters to the seven churches of Asia contains a promise to those who overcome, and some of the churches were warned about the tribulation they would suffer (eg., Smyrna,2:8-11; and Thyatira, 2:18-29). The visible church is often filled with false professors who bring reproach on the gospel their their carnal lives. When persecution comes, however, the fakes head for the exits, and then the the true church, made up of genuine believers, has the opportunity to show the world what life in Christ is really like. The Great Tribulation is simply the climax of what has gone on throughout church history. Cf. I Thess. 1:3-5.

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    • Eliza says:

      I don’t know Bob, those verses from 1 Peter 1:6 &7, are not speaking about the end times tribulation, but about the trials and persecution that we go through as believers in Jesus Christ, they coincide with James 1:2-4 and Romans 5:3-5. The verses from 1 Corinthian 3:11-15 are speaking to rewards not salvation, nor purification for spending eternity with God, but rather eternal rewards or lack thereof for works done while a believer.

      In Revelation chapters two and three, Jesus had messages for specific churches, not the church at large. The verses regarding the church of Smyrna relate to the persecution of this godly Christ-honoring church. Jesus did not warn this church about their error He only commended them for honoring Him. He was warning them of coming persecution not end-time tribulation judgment.

      His message to the church of Thyatira was warning about sexual immorality which He was going to judge unless they repented. There is no opportunity for anyone to get out of the great tribulation. Saint and sinner alike will experience one of two things, persecution to death by unbelievers for the saints, or God’s wrath poured out upon the wicked world for unbelievers. God’s saints who endure persecution during the tribulation will have special reward of reigning with Christ for 1000 years, and sinners after enduring the wrath of God poured out full measure during the tribulation will be rewarded with judgment in the lake of fire.

      Bob, I’m not sure how you can make such blunders with God’s word, is it the commentaries you are reading, is it a bad case of eisegesis, I’m just not sure. Anyway you were completely unable to give me any Scripture that proves the rapture does not take place before the tribulation.

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  5. Bob Wheeler says:

    Here’s the Scripture you asked for:
    “but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened” (Matt. 24:22)
    “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him . . that Day will not come until the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed” (II Thess. 2:1-3).
    “It was granted to him to make war with the saints .. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints” (Rev. 13:7,10).
    On the other hand there is not a single verse anywhere in the entire Bible that says that the rapture will take place before the Tribulation.

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    • gracealone1 says:

      #1 You are equating “elect” with the “church”—–error—-just because someone is ‘elect’ does not automatically place him in the church, Rev. 7:4-8.
      #2 This does NOT indicate that the church will remain on earth for the duration of the GT after the “man of sin” is revealed, you are reading something into the text that is not there.
      #3 Again, you are equating “saints” with the church—-error—-were the saints in the OT part of the church, the Body of Christ? Just because the word “saint” appears in a text does not automatically mean the ‘church’.
      #4 Wrong again , Bob, 1Thes. 5:1-11. Whom did God appoint to WRATH? Whom did God appoint to SALVATION? When you stop making ‘persecution’ and ‘wrath’ mean the same thing then maybe things will become more clear for you. Christ suffered persecution at the hands of wicked men throughout His life, but that is NOT what saved us. When Christ suffered the WRATH of His Father as He became sin for us on the cross, this is what was necessary for salvation to be accomplished. Simply being ‘persecuted’ was not enough, even though the Father used this persecution to effect our salvation, persecution in and of itself was not enough Isa. 53:10 & 2Cor. 5:21. Also, Rev 3:10 states that the faithful will be kept from the “hour of trial that is to try the whole world…”

      You have yet to answer the most disturbing of your erroneous claims and provide the Scriptures to back that claim, so I will ask you once again: By your own words the intent of God (that you ascribe to Him) in making His Church suffer the same fate as the rest of the (lost) world by enduring the Great Tribulation is to “purify the church” [your words]. Such a claim is in direct contradiction to the whole of Scripture, the Character of God Himself, and most of all it defames the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross as insufficient to save the elect to the uttermost. It requires a “second” cleansing which, according to your way of thinking, is made “available” only to those alive on the earth at the time of the GT. So what happens to the rest of the Body of Christ that have died in the Lord? Do they not need this “second cleansing” also? If they do, what mechanism is provided for this? If they do not, then why not? Who provides this “second cleansing” since the Lord Jesus Christ was unable (according to you) to secure ETERNAL salvation for His elect? If ever there was any indication of a person being a false prophet/teacher (as you have accused Eliza of being) this is it. Anyone who says that the sacrifice of Christ is insufficient to save does not say that by the Holy Spirit, but another spirit that is not of God. Today would be a good day for you to examine yourself, Bob.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Bob Wheeler says:

    I will say that the most serious difference between us is what you call “the most disturbing of my erroneous claims.” A major part of the reason I have written on the subject of the rapture and the tribulation is because some Dispensationalists (fortunately, not all) have circulated the idea that it is possible to accept Jesus Christ as Savior and not as Lord, and thereby become “carnal Christians.” They then go on to argue that this carnal, worldly professing church will be raptured out of the world before the Tribulation begins because God would never want His children to go through such a thing.
    It is hard to imagine that anyone could read the New Testament and imagine such a horrendous blasphemy. In the Olivet Discourse, (Matt. 24 & 25) Jesus warns His disciples that we will suffer persecution (24:9-12), and tells them that “he who endures to the end shall be saved.” The end of what? He goes on to describe the Abomination of Desolations and the Great Tribulation, says that ” for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened” (24:22), and then goes on to say “IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS” the Son of Man will come in the clouds aand great glory, and “He will gather His elect from the four winds” (24:31). It is hard to see how He could have been more explicit.
    Jesus then tells His disciples “But of the day and hour no one knows” (24:36) and tells them “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming” (24:42). He then goes on to drive home the practical implication in three parables (24:45-25:30) in which He stresses the importance of Christ finding us serving Him faithfully when He comes.
    These themes are then picked up throughout the rest of the New Testament. Numerous passages throughout the epistles stress the importance of living a holy life in anticipation of the Lord’s return. We are told that Christ will sanctify His church in anticipation of His Second Coming (I Cor. 1:4-9; Eph. 5:25-27; I Thess. 3:11-13; 5:23,24; and Jude 245,25). Moreover the church is to expect persecution (Matt. 10:16-39; Phil. 1:27-30; II Tim. 3:10-13) and God uses these persecutions to test our faith and purify us (Rom. 5:3-5; Jas. 1:2-4: I Pet. 4:12-19). Thus the meaning of I Pet. 1:6,7 should be pretty obvious. We suffer various trials and difficulties. They are meant to test the genuineness of our faith, so that it might be “found to praise, honor, and glory.” When? “. . .at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
    Tragically, most of this is completely lost on the average American Christian. We have managed to convince ourselves that God loves us and has a wonderful plan for our life; that we can then lead a carnal, worldly life, that God wants us to be happy, health and wealthy, and to be taken up to glory before anything bad happens to us. I think that the apostles, in their jail cells, would have been horrified.

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    • Eliza says:

      Elect covers all believers through all time, so of course, there will be believers who are saved during the tribulation, as revealed in Revelation. Jesus is referring to them.

      Bob, your problem is you take verses out of context. That is where your error lies. The passage goes on to clarify that the revelation of the lawless one won’t occur until He who now restrains is take out of the way. That would be the Holy Spirit who resides in believers which will occur at the rapture. The Holy Spirit will still empower sinners to repent and believe the gospel during the tribulation, otherwise why would Jesus Christ appoint the 144,000 evangelists from the nation of Israel, and why would there be the scene of tribulation saints worshiping God in Revelation 7:9-15

      That passage out of Revelation 13 refers to the tribulation saints who have believed through the ministry of the 144,000 evangelists.

      Saints are mentioned in the book of Revelation, but not the church, other than the end time whore church. There you go, because the church, the Body of Christ, isn’t present on the earth during the tribulation. You said that your problem with the pre-trib rapture is that fleshly “Christians” will be taken up. You have a problem with the grace of God, Bob. The other thing is that Paul warns the Corinthians that they must examine themselves to see if they are indeed in the faith, so not all those who claim to be “Christians” and are carnal are truly born again. You must spend more time reading the Bible and asking God to give you a better understanding.

      You have had large latitude within my commenting policies Bob, that is it. Please don’t comment anymore. You have had your say, that is enough. May God bless you with discernment and godly reverence so you will correctly divide the Word of God.

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    • Eliza says:

      So there are false teachers who wrongly encourage ungodly living, antinomianism, that has always been a problem throughout the church, that doesn’t mean that Christ isn’t coming for His church before the tribulation.

      Keep in mind Bob that these epistles were written to the recipients shortly after Christ’s ascension. When will they see Christ’s revelation? They are in heaven now. The appearance of Christ will be for all of His beloved to see, again that doesn’t mean it will take place at the end of the tribulation.

      Believers do suffer persecution, and it will get worse, I’m sure. Maybe most “Christians” aren’t suffering persecution because they don’t belong to Christ’s body but to the world. Because there are false brethren throughout the visible church that means that Christ won’t come for His church until the end of the tribulation? That doesn’t make sense.

      I looked up the verses you referenced, again, these epistles were written shortly after Christ ascended, are these saints that Paul wrote to waiting until the end of the tribulation to be completely sanctified? Are they waiting until the rapture to be completely sanctified? They are with Christ right now! They are wholly perfect! They may be waiting for the rapture of their bodies, but they themselves are perfect. What do they need to wait for? No, these trials and persecutions take place while we sojourn this earth and when we see Christ the sanctification that has resulted because of these difficulties will cause us to praise, worship and adore our Savior for His unmerited grace given to us.

      You should be done commenting on this.

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  7. gracealone1 says:

    Bob, With all of your proof-texting you still have not answered the question at hand. The problems you cite may be real, some are, but the problems and your answers do not address the question of the “second purification” of the church that you and all the post-tribs use to make their case. Nor have you seen fit to address the follow up questions related to your premise that a “second purification” is necessary. The questions are not tough ones, nor are they “trick questions” rather very pertinent and legitimate considering the nature of your premise that a “second purification” is necessary for the church. Please answer my questions.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Bob Wheeler says:

    I’m not exactly sure what you mean by a “second purification” — I have never heard the term used before. I believe in progressive sanctification. I also believe that God uses a variety of means to purify the visible church, as can be seen by what He says to the seven churches of Asia.
    We also know that during the last times there will be a falling away, that professing Christians will deliver up their fellow Christians to persecution, and that only those who persevere to the end will be saved (Matt. 24:4-13). If that amounts to “second purification,” then there you have it, right from the mouth of our Lord!
    The main point I was trying to make in my blog post (“The Rapture — When?”) is that God often uses persecution to purify the visible church, and that would be an obvious rationale behind letting the church go through the Tribulation. “The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the faith.”

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    • gracealone1 says:

      Had you bothered to read the posts where I clearly defined it using your own words, then you would not have to insult us further by this evasive “I don’t know” nonsense. You know very well what it means, you teach it. It is not what you are trying to say in your most recent comment you offer to buy time to concoct a cogent answer. There are only two answers for you: either own the heresy you have taught and repent of it, or continue to teach the lie that the church must be cleansed a second time by enduring the GT thus making the sacrifice of Jesus Christ insufficient. I will play your games no further. What is your answer?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Bob Wheeler says:

        You seem to be saying that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ renders sanctification unnecessary. I don’t buy that at all. We are justified — counted righteous in the sight of God — solely through the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. We are sanctified — made holy in actual practice — through the work of the Holy Spirit inside of us. We do not become more justified over time, but we do, hopefully, become more sanctified over time. God wants us to be both justified and sanctified, and both are included in salvation (Eph. 2:8-10). Because sanctification is variable, Christ issues the various warnings to the churches of Asia in Revelation 2 and 3. We would do well to take them to heart.

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        • gracealone1 says:

          No, Bob, I’ve said no such thing, but you know this. All I’ve done is quote you and ask you why you said what you did and you can give nothing that resembles an answer. This is a typical ploy of false prophets (that would be you, Bob) to question a question so as not to answer it, along with guilt transference—you try to put the monkey on my back (and Eliza’s) instead of owning what you have said and dealing with it. Your father’s words can be found in Gen 3 (“hath God said”) and in Isaiah 14. There is great evil in all of your words, as you handle the Word of God deceitfully, seeking to make a name for yourself at the expense of the Body of Christ. Paul warned those in Thessalonica about the false prophets who taught that the resurrection (our gathering together with the Lord, ie, the rapture) had already taken place. Today we have a new twist from the post-trib folks: the rapture won’t occur until the Church is “cleansed” a second time by the GT. According to the PT’s (and you, Bob) those who are alive today are so far removed from their Lord because of their carnal, worldly life that the only hope they have of reaching heaven is to be “tried by fire” in the GT.

          Now a quote from a noted theologian: “When Christ comes back to receive His Bride, it will not be the carnal, worldly church we see today, but the church whose faith and love have been tested and purified by the flames of persecution” That “theologian” is none other than you, Bob Wheeler. You have been so busted on this, Bob, but now you claim that you are speaking about “sanctification” when all along you have been teaching the need for a second purification for the Bride of Christ.

          Another quote from theologian Bob: “Secondly, believers suffer during the Tribulation precisely so that when the final judgment from God on the wicked comes, it will be absolutely just.” Here we are taught the necessity of God to “justify” Himself by putting His Bride through the judgments of the GT so that no one will be able to bring an accusation of “unjust” or “not fair” against Him. Romans chapter nine is ignored along with countless other Scriptures that teach God does not and will not “justify” His actions to the wicked. Again, the Church and her problems are put as the main attraction in this theological fantasy of the PT’s.

          One more from theologian Bob: “Teaching Christians that it is not God’s will that they experience the Tribulation is not at all helpful, and leaves them unprepared for what surely lies ahead.” And you are just the prophet to set things in order, aren’t you, Bob? So tell us, Bob, what comfort do you offer to the Church with these words of warning? The essence of what you and all the PT’s say is this: all of the Church who are alive on earth at the time of the GT MUST suffer through it, because (in your own words) they are all “carnal and worldly” and unworthy of salvation unless they suffer for it. So what of the “remnant” that so many speak of today? Those who do not worship the Baals, have not “tarnished their garments”, have kept themselves “unspotted from the world”, do they suffer the GT along with the worldly and carnal Christians you say are all that is left on the planet? Who set you up as the arbiter of the just and the unjust? Again, what comfort do you speak to the Church when all you offer them is a mandatory walk through the Great Tribulation? Perhaps you should read Revelation a few dozen times so that the reality of what goes on during that time soaks in, because up until now all you’ve shown is a romantic notion of “persecution”. Had you actually ever experienced any first-hand you would not be so arrogantly brazen in your claims about the future of the Church on earth.

          I know you won’t (can’t) address these concerns and questions posed here. You have not answered any of my questions so far. In summary we have the gospel according to Bob: 1) The current members of the Bride of Christ are unworthy of salvation and therefore must suffer the same fate that lost world faces in order to become worthy of heaven. 2) The Church must suffer the GT in order for God to be justified in His final judgment of the lost. 3) The Church of today is so carnal and worldly that she does not ‘deserve’ any comfort, only an overwhelming dose of fear and the expectation of a horrible death via persecution due to the sins she has committed. 4) The Church’s Lord was unable to secure eternal salvation for those of His Body who are the unfortunate ones to be living on the earth at the time of the GT, therefore they must suffer through the GT to be found worthy of Him (curiously, it is only those alive at the time of the GT that must endure the ravages of it). Does anyone smell “another gospel”?

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          • Bob Wheeler says:

            Item #4, as you have them listed, is a complete misrepresentation of of what I said, and I believe no such thing. Statement 1 is a misstatement of what I actually said and believe. The problem here is that you are confusing the visible church with the Body of Christ. God will purge the visible church of its dross during the Great Tribulation. Just because someone walked down an aisle in response to an altar call does not necessarily make him a true Christian, and the modern church is full of false professors. I stand by statements 2 and 3 as written, because they are clearly taught in Scripture. Notice in particular what our Lord says to the Church of Laodicea.

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        • Eliza says:

          30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God–and righteousness and sanctification and redemption–31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

          We are sanctified in Christ already, our practice is summed up with this verse:

          12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

          So there is your error, you neglect to believe that we are sanctified in Christ Jesus, therefore, we can live to His glory.

          None of this has anything to do with when Christ shall come for His church, His actual elect. There is nothing that needs to be done for Christ to come right now for His chosen ones. Praise God we will not go through the tribulation. God bless us.

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