How Old? Part Two

This is what a commentator had to say about belief in Young Earth Creationism:

My choice of words is exact since both atheism and YEC are beliefs that reject science and reason.

That is because there is so much evidence and just down right, rock solid proof that the universe is billions of years old and that God exists.

Also, from the very first words of Genesis, the nature of God and man is reason and the nature of the universe is such that it can be known through reason.

YEC cripples the Christian doctrine of faith because it rejects the very reason that grounds faith to reality.

The person who declared these words claims to follow Christ, which I don’t intend to dispute.  What I do intend to dispute is his assumption that faith in a young earth overthrows reason.  First and foremost his assertion is deficient since what we know about the universe, it origins and age, is not based upon science nor reason but on divine revelation found only in the Holy Bible.  This brings us to our first critical choice, who we are going to put our confident trust in, as the redeemed of the Lord through faith in Jesus Christ, are we going to believe men or God?  God has declared to us the origins of the earth and the universe.  He has declared to us the truth of the worldwide flood.  Since only God was present at both events, (we know Noah and his family were present and remained alive during the flood) who are we going to believe, God or man?  What we answer here says volumes about our confident trust in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His veracity, since He confirmed the reality of both events.

4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?  Matthew 19:4-5

26 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:  27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.”  Luke 17:26-27

Another problem with his comments is that he forgets, or neglects the biblical doctrine, that the best man is depraved in his thinking and heart, and so is at enmity with God and the truth of God.  Those who approach origins by means of reasoning will always come up with a scenario that is at odds with what God has told us in His Word because they are sinners who willfully reject the revelation of God.

1 Do you indeed speak righteousness, you silent ones?  Do you judge uprightly, you sons of men?  2 No, in heart your work wickedness; You weigh out the violence of your hands in the earth.  3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.  4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent; They are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear.  5 Which will not heed the voice of charmers, Charming ever so skillfully.  Psalm 58:1-5

10 As it is written:  “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understand; There is none who seeks after God.  12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13 “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”, The poison of asps is under their lips”;… Romans 3:10-13

The best that fallen man can do is spread lies against our glorious Creator and despise His Holy Word the Bible.  Reason that is anointed by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ will bring the former sinner to see the glory of God’s creation and agree with the revelation given to us in His Word the Bible.  Here are the testimonies of scientists who repented of their sin, put their faith in Jesus Christ, and believed God’s revelation given to us in the Scriptures.  These scientists have rejected evolution and believe in the YEC.  I am using a resource from Brother David Cloud, and will be copying verbatim from his free e-book which I will reference at the end of this post.

John Baumgardner:  Ph.D. in geophysics and space physics from UCLA, technical staff member in the theoretical division of Los Alamos National Laboratory, chief developer of the TERRA code, a 3-D finite element program for modeling the earth’s mantle and lithosphere.

“Despite all the millions of pages of evolutionist publications–from journal articles to textbooks to popular magazine stories–which assume and imply that material processes are entirely adequate to accomplish macro-evolutionary miracles, there is in reality no rational basis for such belief. It is utter fantasy. Coded language structures are non-material in nature and absolutely require a non-material explanation. Just as there has been glaring scientific fraud in things biological for the past century, there has been a similar fraud in things geological. The error, in a word, is uniformitarianism. … Just as materialist biologists have erroneously assumed that material processes can give rise to life in all its diversity, materialist geologists have assumed that the present can fully account for the earth’s past. In so doing, they have been forced to ignore and suppress abundant contrary evidence that the planet has suffered major catastrophe on a global scale. … As a Christian who is also a professional scientist, I exult in the reality that ‘in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth’ (Exod. 20:11). May He forever be praised” (In Six Days, edited by John Ashton, pp. 230, 231, 239).

Jerry Bergman:  Ph.D. in human biology from Columbia Pacific University and Ph.D. in measurement and evaluation from Wayne State University, with a 4.0 grade average in both doctorates; has taught biology, genetics, chemistry, biochemistry, anthropology, geology, and microbiology at Northwest State College.

“I became involved in the atheism movement and soon knew (and counted as friends) many of the leading atheists of the day, including Gordon Stein, PhD; Gary DeYoung, PhD; and of course, Madalyn Murray O’Hair. I have also published scores of articles in their various magazines. …“I reviewed many books on Darwinism and from them outlined the chief evidence for evolution, which included vestigial organs, homology, ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, beneficial mutations, evidence of poor design, the fossil record, atavisms, nascent organs, the argument from imperfect, natural selection, microevolution versus macroevolution, shared genetic errors, the backward retina, junk DNA, and other topics. … Slowly, but surely, I was able to eliminate all of the main arguments used to support evolutionism by researching secular literature only. At some point I crossed the line, realizing the case against evolutionism was overwhelming and conversely, so was the case in favor of the alternative, creationism. “Another factor that moved me to the creationist side was the underhanded, often totally unethical techniques that evolutionists typically used to suppress dissonant ideas, primarily creationism. Rarely did they carefully and objectively examine the facts, but usually focused on suppression of creationists, denial of their degrees, denial of their tenure, ad hominem attacks, and in general, irrational attacks on their person. In short, their response in general was totally unscientific and one that reeks of intolerance, even hatred” (Persuaded by the Evidence, edited by Doug Sharp and Jerry Bergman, chapter 4).

Walt Brown:  Ph.D. in mechanical engineering from MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology); he is a graduate of West Point, a former Army Ranger and paratrooper, and a retired Air Force colonel; he directed the Benet Laboratories, a 450-person research and development laboratory, was Chief of Science and Technology Studies at the Air War College, and was a tenured professor at the U.S. Air Force Academy.

“Walt Brown received Christ as a teenager, but like many Christians, accepted evolution simply because it permeated secular and educated society. To harmonize evolution with the Bible, he assumed (like many others) that evolution was merely God’s way of creating. One day Walt heard claims that Noah’s ark might be on Mount Ararat in Turkey. That piqued his curiosity; was it possible the Genesis flood really was a worldwide event, not just a legend? If so, where did the water come from? Where did it go? Through long and careful study, Walt learned that the scientific evidence for creation and the Flood was overwhelming. He also began to conclude that the Genesis flood explained most of the characteristics of the earth, including the fossil record that he had earlier supposed supported evolution. Creation science became the passion of his life. … “Walt’s research is encapsulated in a book that has gone through multiple revisions and expansions since its fledgling edition: In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood. [It] begins with 135 categories of evidence that support creation and oppose evolution. … “When Walt was an evolutionist, among the hindrances to his acceptance of the Genesis global flood were two questions: Where did the water come from, and where did it go? For years, Walt studied many disciplines as he pondered these questions. The result was a global model of the Flood, faithful to the biblical record, involving physics, math, geology, biology, and astronomy, which Walt believes convincingly answers these two questions. … Walt was also the first to propose … that the Grant Canyon was formed from a specific dam breach in a large post-Flood lake that he identified via a number of techniques. … “Walt has made a standing offer to evolutionists. He invites a qualified evolutionist to join him in a written, strictly scientific debate on the scientific case for creation versus evolution. The debate must be restricted to scientific evidence alone–no religious arguments are allowed. Each side would have the opportunity to read the other’s arguments and respond with a written rebuttal. All the results would be published … For more than 25 years no one has taken Walt up on his debate challenge” (Persuaded by the Evidence, p. 181, 182,183, 184, 186). In regard to his debate challenge, Dr. Brown says: “The best way, I believe, to clarify the creation-evolution controversy is to have a thorough, written, publishable, strictly scientific debate. Both sides would lay out their case, much as I have in The Scientific Case for Creation on pages 5-101 [of his book In the Beginning]. Then each side would respond, point-by-point, to the case for the other side. Both sides would have the right to publish the finished exchange. I have sought such an exchange since 1980, but have not had a serious, qualified taker. When I speak at universities and colleges, I offer students a $200 finder’s fee if they can find an evolutionist professor who will complete such a debate” (In the Beginning, p. 406).

As to the historical authenticity of Genesis 1-11, Dr. Brown testifies: “Hundreds of topics and scientific discoveries supporting creation and the flood fascinate most people and are easy to discuss, even with strangers. In effect, this becomes a powerful pre-evangelistic tool. While no one has all the answers concerning our origins, be assured that the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly consistent with Genesis 1-11. … What better way to establish the accuracy and authority of Scripture than by showing that Genesis 1-11 (the most discredited portion of the Bible to the secular world) is remarkably accurate? Understanding Genesis helps the Bible come alive” (In the Beginning, pp. 316, 317).

Don DeYoung:  Ph.D. in physics Dr. DeYoung is a member of ICR’s RATE team of scientists (Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth).

In the book Thousands… Not Billions, DeYoung argues for a young earth. He shows, for example, that carbon-14 actually supports a young earth rather than an ancient one. “Rocks and fossils containing carbon occur in abundance throughout the earth’s strata. Once living organisms now buried in these strata incorporated some carbon-14 within themselves while they were alive. For earth materials classified as ancient, all of this original C-14 content should be completely decayed away. … any carbon-containing materials that are truly older than 100,000 years should be ‘carbon-14 dead’ with C-14 levels below detection limits. This fact gives rise to a major challenge to the long age assumption for rocks and fossils. In recent years, readily detectable amounts of carbon-14 have been the rule rather than the exception. This is true for samples from throughout the fossil-bearing parts of the geologic record with presumed ages extending to hundreds of millions of years. The unexpected carbon-14 was initially assumed to be a result of contamination, most likely from the experimental counting procedures, but as this problem was aggressively explored, it was realized that most of the carbon-14 was inherent to the samples being measured” (Thousands … Not Billions, pp. 48, 49).

Geoff Downes:  Ph.D. in tree physiology from the University of Melbourne, senior research scientist with the commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization.

“In 1984 I commenced a Ph.D. degree in tree physiology. Increasingly, I wonder at how anyone can look at the complexity of a living organism and believe that it arose by natural processes. The whole of the biological sciences leads to the conclusion that a Creator was necessary. … The complexity of not just living organisms but the communities within which they exist cannot be explained satisfactorily without the conclusion that there is a Creator. … Over the past 15 years of research experience, my views have only become stronger. I have come to realize that evolution is a religious view founded on the assumption that we can discern truth by using the abilities of our mind to reason and think logically through the evidence perceived by our five senses. However, if we pursue that reasoning, we ultimately arrive at the conclusion that we have no logical basis for believing that we can reason logically. We cannot prove that our thought processes are not just random chemical reactions occurring without our brains” (In Six Days, edited by John Ashton, p. 332, 333).

Here are five testimonies from scientists who believe in the YEC.  Of course, there are more testimonies to be found in this free e-book, but these are the ones that I believe best refute the declaration given at the beginning of this post.  If origins are researched with enlightened reasoning then the veracity of the opening chapters of Genesis becomes starkly apparent. The testimony of God’s Word is that the wonder of this earth and our solar system declare His glory and underline His truth that He has declared for us in the Holy Word of God, the Bible.  May God bless us as we strive for His truth!

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament show His handiwork. 2 Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language Where their voice is not heard.  4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world.  In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, And rejoices like a strong man to run its race. 6 Its rising is from one end of heaven, And its circuit to the other end; And there is nothing hidden from its heat.  The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul, The testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the simple;  Psalm 19:1-7

David W. Cloud, Testimonies of Scientists Who Believe the Bible, (Way of Life Literature, Port Huron, MI 2011)

http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/scientists_who_believe_the_bible.php

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59 Responses to How Old? Part Two

  1. Arkenaten says:

    I just looked up Baumgardner.
    He joined Wyatt on an expedition to find the ark in Turkey.
    Did you even bother to check this?
    That he would associate himself with an outright fraud, liar and crook such as Wyatt is enough to stop me from wasting any more of my time on such ridiculous Wild Goose chases..
    And you should stop wasting your time as well.

    Like

    • Eliza says:

      Another scientist who used the Scriptures to drive his inquiries and discoveries is Matthew Maury who after having Psalm 8 read to him determined to find the paths in the sea.

      Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee” (Job 12:8).

      Matthew Maury served as a U.S. naval officer before suffering an injury which forced his retirement. He was then placed in charge of the Depot of Charts and Instruments of the Hydrographic Office of the Navy from 1841 to 1861. He was a Christian who loved the Word of God. One day, while reading Psalm 8, he was struck by an important truth in the 8th verse. There he read that God had given man dominion over “the fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.” He immediately saw the great practical significance of that verse, recognizing that there must be currents of water in the oceans, just like vast rivers, as well as in the atmosphere (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

      With confidence in the accuracy of the Bible, Maury determined to discover the paths in the seas and the wind circuits, utilizing the charts and log books he had at his disposal. He did discover and plot many of the wind circuits and currents, such as the great Gulf Current, 40 miles wide and 2,000 feet deep that comes out of the Gulf of Mexico into the Atlantic; the Japanese Current, the California Current, and others. Utilizing this information, the sailing ships of his day plied these currents and wind circuits, reducing by as much as three weeks the time required to cross the oceans.

      On a monument erected by the state of Virginia to his memory is found a plaque that reads as follows: “Matthew Fontaine Maury, Pathfinder of the Seas, the genius who first snatched from the oceans and atmosphere the secret of their laws. His inspiration, Holy Writ, Psalm 8:8; Ecclesiastes 1:6.” A genius? No. Just a simple Bible-believing Christian who trusted the inerrancy of the Word of God. DTG

      Like

      • Arkenaten says:

        Great but you did not respond to the fact that Baumgardner went on an expedition with that Charlatan dickhead, Ron Wyatt.
        Yopu do realise he claimed there were chariot wheels on the bottom of the Red Sea?
        And you do realise that the supposed crossing was not even across ther Red Sea but the Reed Sea?
        And I once had Creationist Preacher call me a liar because ”his” archaeologist claimed he had evidence – it was Wyatt.
        What next, Eliza? Dinosaur footprints on the Paluxy Rover bed?

        Really, this is just getting too silly.

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        • Eliza says:

          This all from the minds of religious liberals who out of hand reject the authority and truthfulness of the Scriptures. Why should any believer listen to them. They are deceived and dead in their trespasses and sins, like you Ark.

          Like

          • Arkenaten says:

            If you are a witness for your god then you have a sworn duty to spread the word. You are morally obliged to try to ensure that my soul is delivered unto your god.
            Yet here you are, not providing evidence, not answering genuine questions with strong any degree of honesty or integrity whatsoever but simply damning me and ridiculing what I say.

            If Jesus were here now, he would be ashamed of you. And you should be as well.
            You are the worst example of Christian.
            Your conduct is a flagrant disgrace. You should be ashamed of yourself.

            Like

          • Eliza says:

            I have and have done that well. You just need to read and see that what I have stated concurs with the Scripture. How can you presume to speak for the Savior whom you deny and believe is just a fairy tale? What you have to say has no merit. You can attack me, but what you say is a baseless attack. You have nothing more that you can say so you resort to an attack on my character thus displaying the utter bankruptcy of your unbelief.

            Liked by 1 person

  2. This post is based on same fallacy that I explained in one of my comments.

    That is, the fallacy that faith and reason can contradict each other.

    Since faith and reason have the same source, God, they cannot contradict each other.

    The problem is not science, but the man-spawned interpretation of the Bible that yields YEC.

    Science comes from the laws of nature and nature’s God (the Creator) and are proven true again and again.

    YEC is an interpretation of the Bible that contradicts of the laws of nature and nature’s God and so, is false teaching.

    Saint Paul said that we must test what we think has been revealed to us in order to verify the truth of it.

    Simply saying that YEC is true because the Bible says so is a logical fallacy called circular thinking.

    Logical fallacy means an error in reason and as consequence cannot yield truth.

    Therefore, YEC, being the result of logical fallacy, is a false teaching.

    Like

    • Eliza says:

      Since you choose to listen to fallen fallible man rather than believe the revelation that has been given to us by God Almighty in His Holy Word the Bible then you have no credibility. Reason unaided by God’s grace and mercy is a pretext to reject the truth that God has given in His Word the Bible. God didn’t need vast eons of time for His supernatural creation of the universe and all that is in it, because He is God. You believe in a god that is weak and needy. You deny what God has said in His Word that He saw all that He had created and it was good. Why would He say that about imperfection, death and extinction? If you reject the revelation given to us in Genesis the opening chapters, then how can you reconcile what God said through Paul in Romans 5, and 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul compares Christ’s obedient sacrifice that gives justification to all those who believe with Adam’s willful sin and bequeathing the sin nature to all of mankind, with what you contend? Your logic is full of holes and a complete fallacy.

      Like

      • Eliza,

        Here from Genesis 1: 4, God calls the night and day spheres of light and darkness:

        “God saw the light, and found it good, and he divided the spheres of light and darkness; 5 the light he called Day, and the darkness Night.”

        Are you honestly telling us that “Day” and “Night” are spheres of light and darkness?

        I thought you were trying to sell us on the idea that the day and night taken together are an Earth day?

        And this is what Genesis 1:6-8, says about the sky:

        “God said, too, ‘Let a solid vault arise amid the waters, to keep these waters apart from those;’ 7 a vault by which God would separate the waters which were beneath it from the waters above it; and so it was done. 8 This vault God called the Sky.”

        Are you honestly telling us that the sky is a “solid vault” arisen “amid the waters, to keep these waters apart from those,”?.

        Reading and understanding Genesis your way is to make a mockery of the Bible by making it sound stupid.

        But please, go right ahead and tell everyone how your interpretation of “day” is the Word of God but that “spheres of light and darkness” and the sky being a “solid vault,” are only figures of speech.

        Like

    • archaeopteryx1 says:

      Wow, SOM – I never thought I’d see the day when anything you said made sense – today would be an exception, once in a row!

      Like

      • Arch,

        Like Eliza’s kind of “Christian” things only make sense to you, if you are in agreement with them.

        In other words, things are true only because you say they are true and if anyone says different from you, they don’t make sense.

        That is the world spoken into existence by the Gospel of Saint Bias.

        Like

        • Eliza says:

          And you are of your brother, Reject the Revelation of God for the superiority of man’s meager surmising. Too bad. Yes, you do have more in common with the atheists whom you purport to reject then you do with those who hold to a literal interpretation of the Scriptures given the constraints of understanding that the metaphorical is meant to be taken as such. Open your eyes SOM. Please!

          Like

        • archaeopteryx1 says:

          And that differs from nearly every comment of yours I’ve ever read, how?

          Like

  3. Arkenaten says:

    Editor deleted link from atheistic website used to undermine the testimony of one of the scientists listed here.

    Perhaps you might want to delete this chappy from your list of notable scientists?

    Like

    • Eliza says:

      And rationalwiki is an unbiased entity that should be listened to, NOT! Of course, they are going to do whatever they can to discredit someone who came from being an atheistic evolutionist to proving the dearth of evidence to support evolution.

      Like

  4. Arkenaten says:

    You still will not acknowledge what you believe the age of the earth to be, yet state that you believe it older than 6000 years.
    However, this is from creation.com
    Bible texts are referenced which indicate that creation took place about 6000 years ago. Massive theological problems associated with adding ‘millions of years’ to the Bible are also summarized.

    So these guys are saying 6000 years, there about.

    What do you say?

    Like

    • Eliza says:

      They believe in a young earth, as testified to in the Scriptures. I also believe in a young earth because it is in agreement with what God says, and He doesn’t lie nor is He mistaken. I don’t have to give you a time frame. I have already stated my position.

      Like

  5. Evolution Blows Away Like a House of Cards in a Hurricane

    Darwin knew a living cell as only a blob of green protoplasm. However, in recent decades since the discovery of DNA, knowledge of cell structure has exploded at an exponential pace. A cell is like a micro-city. It has power plants (mitochondria), manufacturing plants (ribosomes), a central library or database (DNA), an “Interstate” highway system (microtubules), a distribution center (Golgi Complex), a fleet of trucks (vesicles), and provisions for water and wastewater treatment. Your body has 50-100 trillion of these micro-cities.
    Each of your cells houses a DNA database that contains at least 3 gigabytes of information (think Encyclopedia Britannica) coded in a language that uses a four-letter alphabet (nitrogen bases). Each of 100,000 different proteins in the body is itself a massive molecule created from a language using a twenty-letter alphabet (amino acids). Proteins contain from 50 to 36,000 amino acids in a precisely programmed sequence. A single cell contains about 9,000 of these amazingly complex molecules in addition to the DNA.
    To manufacture just one protein, the information coded in a very specific DNA location must be transcribed (like old-fashioned short hand) from coded information to information in a useful form (RNA). The information in the more useful form must be translated from a 4-letter alphabet language into different 20-letter alphabet language, similar to translating English into Chinese. Only then can the actual manufacture of the protein begin.
    Even the DNA of a single-celled bacterium contains an amount of coded information in the megabyte range. Remember when computers had a memory measured in megabytes? We were amazed at even those computer capabilities at the time.
    Did all this arise by time and chance alone? No way! Absolutely not! Simply imagining astronomical amounts of time cannot come anywhere close to explaining the creation of life.
    Today, Charles Darwin would likely doubt, if not repudiate, his own theory. Toward the end of his life, he observed:
    I was a young man with unformed ideas. I threw out queries, suggestions, wondering all the time over everything; and to my astonishment the ideas took like wildfire. People made a religion of them. Charles Darwin
    Praise God from whom ALL things flow!
    Post from my blog at lloydstebbins.com

    Liked by 2 people

    • Lloyd,

      There is no area of science that has not progressed by leaps and bounds since the days of Darwin.

      So to expect the concept of evolution not to have also advanced by leaps and bounds is unreasonable.

      In fact, molecular biology, namely the study of DNA has proven the principle of evolution beyond a shadow of a doubt.

      That is because evolution is defined in modern biology as changes in DNA that are passed on to, or inherited by future generations.

      Since all life on Earth is based on DNA we know that all life is related, and as stated clearly in the Bible, advanced from the simple to the more complex.

      Lastly, came man, made of the same “clay” as all other living things.

      There is nothing about the principle of evolution that excludes the Creator.

      In fact, all true principles of science point to, and sing the glory of God, Almighty.

      Like

      • Eliza says:

        Oh yes, and all of that information just magically appeared and produced life and then got more and more complex as the life forms increased in complexity. This is exactly what is found when looking at mutations in the DNA. NOT! DNA mutations are almost always harmful, but never do they increase the complexity of the creature. You need to stop reading evolutionary propaganda and go elsewhere for your information. Either you believe what God has said or you don’t. Don’t make a pretense of belief when you categorically deny major doctrines in God’s Word that are integral to our salvation. See my previous reply.

        Like

        • Eliza,

          I never claimed that DNA magically appeared and produced life.

          Clearly, you aren’t even reading my comments.

          Like the atheist you just cut, paste and troll.

          Like

          • Eliza says:

            No I write what I have to say. However, I have given information that is more thorough through the copy and paste technique. You can go ahead and try to discredit what I have to say, but you didn’t answer the obvious and credible objections that I raised concerning your position, and your rejoinder from Genesis makes no sense. Since the Creator created all, that includes light and darkness, yes He can separate them and call the night and day. If you allegorize the entire opening of Genesis then you have no basis for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ through God’s promise to Adam and Eve. You are in effect denying the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ to redeem sinners from the curse brought upon through Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. You aren’t by the way a disciple of C. S. Lewis are you?

            Like

          • Eliza,

            Neither do I claim to “allegorize” all of Genesis.

            My disagreement is against the YEC interpretation of the Genesis, which as I have shown, even Genesis refutes.

            Like

          • Eliza says:

            Well, I don’t know why since you seem to think it is okay to make the account of Creation an allegory. What gives you the right to do this with the Word of God, and what is to stop you from doing this elsewhere? There is an arrogance and tendency towards declination once an individual starts to call certain parts of the Scriptures into question. Sorry that is just the way it is. Genesis doesn’t refute that. The word for day, as described in the account, is the same word used for day elsewhere. We either agree with God and His Word, or we don’t. It is that simple. I choose to agree with God and His Word and do not see the necessity of waving away His account of Creation by allegorizing what He has stated.

            Like

          • Eliza,

            My argument against YEC centers on the correct use of language, the agreement between faith and reason (the Bible does not conflict with science), and that Genesis itself, disproves YEC.

            I make no claims concerning allegory or any other literary style used by the biblical authors.

            Like

          • Eliza says:

            Genuine science does not conflict with the Bible. Pseudo-science used by sinners who hate God is not science. Look to the Scriptures rather than the opinion of men. You keep saying the Genesis account disproves YEC, how? It gives the record of God’s creation of the heavens and the earth in chapter one. In chapters two and three it gives the account in finer detail in order to prove God’s Creation was perfect and mankind had unhindered fellowship with God until tragedy struck God’s perfect Creation when Adam and Eve sinned by believing the devil over God’s direct revelation to Adam. This same willful disobedience plundered the nation of Israel as they followed the vain and evil teachings of the nations around them, though God specifically revealed Himself to them and gave them the law, and caused the Jews to reject their Messiah Who fulfilled all the prophecies in their Scriptures that foretold His birth, His ministry, His death and His resurrection. It is this same lie from the enemy that causes sinners to question His Word and try to align it with the philosophies of this fallen world. It can’t be done. Either believe the Scriptures and reject the wisdom of man, or reject the Scriptures and hold to the wisdom of man. They are mutually exclusive.

            19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Romans 8:19-22

            Like

          • Eliza,

            If you bothered reading my comments you would have seen my references to chapter and verses in Genesis that disproves YEC.

            Like

          • Eliza says:

            Please read my reply regarding firmament. I think that you will find it enlightening. God bless you.

            Like

          • Eliza,

            My comments do not concern firmament.

            You must have me hallucinated with someone else.

            Like

          • Eliza says:

            Oh wait you didn’t bring up Genesis 1:7?

            Like

          • Eliza,

            I repeat, my comments do not concern firmament.

            You are hallucinate your own argument, assign it to me and then demand that I explain it.

            Atheists do that too because they aren’t capable of addressing actual arguments from actual people.

            Like

          • Eliza says:

            You did bring it up but you mislabeled it sky. I answered your contention and gave you the derivation of what you are saying. Read it, you could learn something, I hope.

            Like

          • Eliza,

            There is no firmament. There is only sky.

            Using the word firmament makes your argument for YEC even more ridiculous.

            Like

          • Eliza says:

            Here is what you wrote:

            And this is what Genesis 1:6-8, says about the sky:

            “God said, too, ‘Let a solid vault arise amid the waters, to keep these waters apart from those;’ 7 a vault by which God would separate the waters which were beneath it from the waters above it; and so it was done. 8 This vault God called the Sky.”

            Are you honestly telling us that the sky is a “solid vault” arisen “amid the waters, to keep these waters apart from those,”?.

            Reading and understanding Genesis your way is to make a mockery of the Bible by making it sound stupid.

            This is my response:

            SOM the Hebrew word raqia was translated from the Hebrew into the Greek with the word stereoma that denotes a solid structure to represent the Egyptian view of cosmology of that day that supported the the sky to be solid and so that was how the Hebrew word was translated. Did you know that the Septuagint was a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek for the Egyptian Pharaoh Ptolemy for his world famous library in Alexandria? The Hebrew word, raqia, actually means expanse or to stretch out. It can be seen as meaning this when it is coupled with the word for plates in Numbers 16:38 when describing the plating of the altar with bronze. Then in Genesis 1:8 the word raqia is defined as meaning heaven by the Hebrew samayim which means lofty. So Moses was calling the atmosphere the lofty expanse, and isn’t that what it is? I remember a real crusty chemist at the university I attended tried to discredit God’s Word by attributing that meaning to it, that firmament meant a solid structure. It is amazing how hard sinners try to discredit God’s Holy Word. When Jerome translated the Septuagint into the Vulgate, he chose the word firmament to give the connotation for the Greek stereoma thus leading to the denotation of a solid expanse.
            The Hebrew samayim is used to describe where the birds fly, the sky (Jeremiah 4:25), is used to describe the location of the stars, the heavens (Isaiah 13:10). Here is the link where I found this information:

            https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=194

            You can run, but you can’t hide.

            Like

          • archaeopteryx1 says:

            I’m glad to see, SOM, that you’re getting a chance to see what we go through on a regular basis!

            Liked by 1 person

          • Eliza says:

            You are laughable.

            Like

      • archaeopteryx1 says:

        You had me, all the way to that last sentence —

        Like

    • Arkenaten says:

      And how exactly does this all make Yeshua Ben Josef the Creator of the Universe?

      Like

    • Eliza says:

      Thank you Lloyd for sharing this. It is truly amazing how complex the normal cell is and how amazing our God is Who created it all. God bless you.

      Like

  6. Eliza says:

    Order, purpose, complexity, and symbiosis can not come about accidentally from non-directed random impersonal forces. If you can’t see or understand that, then I wonder about your integrity. Jesus Christ is God the Son of God and the Scriptures declare that He is the Creator. This is true whether or not you accept it as so. Since you can’t, or refuse to, bow the knee to the obvious signature of God in Creation, then whatever you have to say has no bearing upon what the Bible tells us about Jesus Christ. You’ve already proven your deficiency.

    Like

  7. Eliza says:

    We can go head to head all day long with this, but I will document scientific declarations found in the Scriptures that were made well before their discoveries. I will state the declarations along with the reference in the Bible where it is found.

    The earth is suspended in space, Job 26:7; all of matter consists of invisible particles, atoms, Hebrews 11:3; the ark had the perfect dimensions (6 times longer than wide) to give it the greatest stability in the ocean, Genesis 6:13, the Bible gives proper technique for cleansing from germs, Leviticus 15:13; sanitary disposal of human waste for cleanliness is commanded by God, Deuteronomy 23:12-13; the ocean contains springs, Job 38:16, there are mountains in the ocean Jonah 2:5-6; blood is the source of life and health, Leviticus 7:11, 14; God created life according to kinds, Genesis 1:24; all energy and matter is constant, as when God said the creation was finished, supporting the first law of thermodynamics, Genesis 2:1-2; in the opening chapter of Genesis expresses all known aspects of creation, time, space, matter, and energy, Genesis 1:1-3; the universe had a beginning, Genesis 1:1, Hebrews 1:10-12; the earth is a sphere Isaiah 40:22; Scripture assumes the earth revolves, Luke 17:34-36; Ocean currents were disclosed, Psalm 8:8; reproduction explained, Genesis 1:27-28; incalculable number of stars, Jeremiah 33:22; estimated number of stars equal to grains of sand, Genesis 22:17, Hebrews 11:12;
    God has created all of mankind from one blood, Acts 17:26, Genesis 5; second law of thermodynamics taught in the Scripture, Psalm 102:25-26; the hydrological cycle describe well before it was discovered, Job 36:27-28, Ecclesiastes 1:7, Jeremiah 10:13, Amos 9:6; the sun goes in a circuit, Psalm 19:6.

    If the Bible were not the inspired, infallible, inerrant, preserved Word of God then these scientific discoveries anticipated by the prophets who wrote the Scriptures under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit would not be clearly presented in the Bible. So my question is are you going to follow God, His Son and His Word, or are you going to follow fallible man who is just coming up to speed with all that God has declared in His Word? God’s Word blazes forth as a shining light, while man in his arrogance stumbles about in the darkness blinded by his sinful rebellion against God Almighty. Everyone who trusts in man will be ultimately ashamed, those who trust in Christ will always be confident in their God. He is the propitiation for the sins of mankind so that those who repent of their sin and put their faith in Him, His death and resurrection on their behalf, are assured of eternal life and will not come into judgment. Those who reject the Son of God have God’s wrath abiding on them and will spend eternity in hell fire. Repent and believe the gospel.

    Like

    • Arkenaten says:

      Those who reject the Son of God have God’s wrath abiding on them and will spend eternity in hell fire.

      The average Christian would be ashamed that you number yourself among their ranks.
      You are Ignorant and intolerant.
      Jesus would be ashamed of what you write.
      He without sin cast the first stone.
      You are an utter disgrace to your religion.

      Like

      • Eliza says:

        Well, that is very funny since Jesus Christ warned more about hell then He talked about heaven. Why? Because It is a reality and He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentant faith in Him. He would be ashamed of me because I contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints, something that He did Himself when He confronted the religious elites of His day who substituted the teachings of man for the doctrines of God. They rejected Him because they preferred their teaching to what the Scripture has to say. Unfortunately, and sadly, many professing Christians today have more in common with the religious elites than they do with Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself gave the reason for this and the cure.

        23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him,…29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.” Matthew 22:23,29

        27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raise her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Luke 11:27-28

        Jesus Christ is clearly revealed to us in His Holy Word and that revelation has nothing to do with the made up version that occupies so many minds that have made God into an image with which they are comfortable. God is holy, we are not, God is sovereign and rules over all, we do not, God is the loving Savior who died in the place of sinful man to reconcile to Himself all those who will repent of their sins and put their faith in Him.

        Like

      • Eliza says:

        It is terribly sad how you leave off the part that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. He has done all that is possible to redeem sinners. Through God’s gracious Spirit all they have to do is repent of their sins and believe in the Savior.

        Like

      • Eliza says:

        Ark all are sinners and fall short of the glory of God. Praise God that He has reconciled me to Himself through His Son Jesus Christ who took the punishment that I deserve and then rose from the dead proving He has the power and authority to forgive all sinners who will repent of their sins and turn to Him because He is victorious over sin, death, and the devil.

        Like

  8. Eliza says:

    SOM the Hebrew word raqia was translated from the Hebrew into the Greek with the word stereoma that denotes a solid structure to represent the Egyptian view of cosmology of that day that supported the the sky to be solid and so that was how the Hebrew word was translated. Did you know that the Septuagint was a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek for the Egyptian Pharaoh Ptolemy for his world famous library in Alexandria? The Hebrew word, raqia, actually means expanse or to stretch out. It can be seen as meaning this when it is coupled with the word for plates in Numbers 16:38 when describing the plating of the altar with bronze. Then in Genesis 1:8 the word raqia is defined as meaning heaven by the Hebrew samayim which means lofty. So Moses was calling the atmosphere the lofty expanse, and isn’t that what it is? I remember a real crusty chemist at the university I attended tried to discredit God’s Word by attributing that meaning to it, that firmament meant a solid structure. It is amazing how hard sinners try to discredit God’s Holy Word. When Jerome translated the Septuagint into the Vulgate, he chose the word firmament to give the connotation for the Greek stereoma thus leading to the denotation of a solid expanse.
    The Hebrew samayim is used to describe where the birds fly, the sky (Jeremiah 4:25), is used to describe the location of the stars, the heavens (Isaiah 13:10). Here is the link where I found this information:

    https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=194

    Like

  9. gracealone1 says:

    Thanks, Eliza, for the wealth of information you have provided concerning our Creator and some of the men who have come to their senses and believed His Word rather than the pathetic excuse for academic achievement as presented by those intellectual giants who comment here and show the world their utter ignorance of the science they claim to speak for, all the while finding new ways to insult you. Since there is absolutely zero scientific evidence of any kind to support even the basest “theories of evolution” they really are making a spectacle of themselves for all who read here to see. I find their antics quite laughable. They demand that Christians not judge someone else’s speech or reasoning abilities(?) but they are the first to throw insults and accusations and are the very worst at what they would have people believe they are against.

    Recently, there was much ado in the scientific community about the expectation the CERN would find what they called the “god-particle” hoping that it would solve the unanswered questions about life, the origin of the universe, etc. It seems as though their quest was rewarded, but what they found out was totally unexpected. Their findings have caused them to humbly admit that there was never a “big-bang” (the foundation of Darwin’s nonsense) and that the universe was indeed created, but of course they stopped short of giving credit where credit is due and God Almighty is shunned one more time. Today’s champion of Darwin’s foolishness is Richard Dawkins, a self-professed atheist (there really are NO atheists, just those who hate God). In God’s eyes he is a fool because he has said there is no God and I will agree with my Lord on this that Dawkins and all those who think the same way (pseudo-atheism) are fools. They all have their pet idols that they construct and bow down to with most of them having similar traits, but all denying the Lord Jesus and His Word.

    There has never been (nor ever shall be) any proof given by anyone that evolution even in it’s most simple form exists. The same people that scream at Christians that having faith in Christ is meaningless (because they say He does not exist) are the same ones that expect all of humanity (especially Christians) to accept by faith that Darwin was/is correct; evolution is a reality and God is not. Not to do so gets one labeled, stupid, ignorant, uneducated, narrow minded, and certain other expletives that some love to throw out. To all pseudo atheists and evolutionists it’s time to MAN-UP and PROVE what you have been spouting. Use your “superior intellect” and prove what you claim. A difficult task, since there is nothing that points to evolution as being fact, just the wishful thinking of those who will cling to any excuse to hate God and mock Him.

    Liked by 2 people

    • archaeopteryx1 says:

      There has never been (nor ever shall be) any proof given by anyone that evolution even in it’s most simple form exists.

      How foolish. Everydaym you see examples of how evolution works all around you. Thirty thousand years ago, the first wolves were domesticated, and from them, Humankind has sped up the evolutionary process through selective breeding, and created every breed of dog you see today. If each of those breeds had been exclusively bred only to members of its own variety, in time, they would have evolved to the point where they could no longer interbreed with other varieties, and new species would have been created.

      Like

      • Eliza says:

        Think about what you just said. Humankind used selective breeding for the traits they wanted. Those traits would have to be extant in the genome of the dog. You assume, of course, that thirty thousand years ago mankind domesticated wolves and that there weren’t dogs in existence at that time. Your assumption is wrong. A dog skull dated at 33,000 years old was found in a Russian cave. The skull was compared with wolves, and other dogs and found to be most like a dog of the Samoyed breed. So because dogs can be big or little, different lengths, different shapes, different colors, have different temperaments, have different skills, that have been manipulated by intelligent beings, that would be us, for our own purposes, you again assume that proves evolution? No, it proves diversity within the species which is due to the genomic code, which is what we see in every species. That is not evolution, it is adaptation. They are dogs and will still be dogs and won’t be anything but dogs. There is no evidence for evolution, dogs will not miraculously sprout wings and start flying. It is ignorant to equate adaptation with evolution.

        Liked by 2 people

        • archaeopteryx1 says:

          …dogs will not miraculously sprout wings and start flying” – Shouldn’t you be posting a pic of Kirk Cameron’s famous Crockoduck?

          Wolves, coyotes, and dingos are all separate species that, at one time, had a common ancestor, before the three formed separate branches. And I’d love to hear more about that 33 thousand year old dog skull, except that would invalidate your 6 thousand year old earth.

          Liked by 1 person

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